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Hack Chat Transcript, Part 1

A event log for Brainstorming COVID-19 Hack Chat

Hackers thinking through potential solutions

dan-maloneyDan Maloney 04/08/2020 at 20:280 Comments

OK, welcome everyone. Today's Hack Chat is a bit different, since we have no host per se. I'll be moderating, though - I'm Dan Maloney, staff writer at Hackaday.com and community engineer at Hackaday.io, BTW

[skaarj]12:01 PM
Hint: for whoever is working for medical hacks: go check in with the Army and ask them to allow you access to their forgotten warehouses

christian12:02 PM
Thank you, Dan

Daren Schwenke12:02 PM
Thank you Dan. Moderate away. :)

I think what we can accomplish today is to just get some ideas out there about how we can hack this situation, with the obvious aim of making things better

Ale joined  the room.12:02 PM

Fervel Lankemann joined  the room.12:02 PM

We've seen tons of hacks that mostly come down to two broad buckets: personal protective gear for healthcare pros/first responders, and DIY ventilators

David12:03 PM
how about COVID-19 detection?

Joshua Young12:03 PM
Does anyone have recommendations for mass airflow sensors for ventilators. Like a link to what i can buy?

David12:03 PM

https://hackaday.io/project/6180-dna-lamp-diagnostic-device

HACKADAY

DNA-LAMP Diagnostic Device

Billions of people have no way to access modern medicine, and millions die there each year from communicable diseases. A baby girl born in Sub-Saharan Africa faces a 22 per cent risk of death before age 15.

Read this on Hackaday

Daren Schwenke12:04 PM
Links inline to keep them from expanding.

https://hackaday.io/project/170622-visp-ventilator-inline-sensor-package

https://hackaday.io/project/170507-cosv-cam-open-source-ventilator

Honestly, the DIY ventilators scare the crap out of me - read Bob Baddely's article and watch Real Engineering's latest video on why they're such a bad idea and might do more harm than good.

David12:04 PM
that should be able to detect COVID-19 RNA in about 10 mins

luther12:04 PM
I've been making fabric face masks withe a bunch of friends and some local businesses, we've donated ~200 to local hospitals and shelters


https://hackaday.com/2020/03/25/ventilators-101-what-they-do-and-how-they-work/

HACKADAY BOB BADDELEY

Ventilators 101: What They Do And How They Work

Treating the most serious cases of COVID-19 calls for the use of ventilators. We've all heard this, and also that there is a shortage of these devices. But there is not one single type of ventilator, and that type of machine is not the only option when it comes to assisted breathing being used in treatment.

Read this on Hackaday

luther12:04 PM
But then I got on the DIY ventilator train, too


https://hackaday.com/2020/04/07/real-engineering-behind-ventilators/

HACKADAY AL WILLIAMS

Real Engineering Behind Ventilators

Experts on cognition tell us that most people think they know more than they really do. One particular indicator for that is if someone is an expert in one field and they feel like all other fields relate to theirs (everything boils down to math or chemistry or physics, for example).

Read this on Hackaday

christian12:05 PM
If you need a ventilator you also need a team of expert medical staff .. that's surely yhr bottleneck

Steven.Carr joined  the room.12:05 PM

[skaarj]12:05 PM
......all of these projects are based on 3D printed parts, which have tiny holes inside... and this is a perfect environment for "colonies of microscopic animals" to hide

[skaarj]12:05 PM
that's why our Army dumped this idea

luther12:06 PM
I modeled existing pneumatic ventilators from Penlon and Pneupac

Arthur12:06 PM
Joshua look at the sensors used in cars in engine management systems

So maybe can we shy away from those two categories and talk more about other areas that hackers can make a difference in? Testing is a great place to start; maybe disinfection too?

profdc912:06 PM
I think it is a little unfair to suggest that most people believe they know more than they do. It's more solutions borne out of desperation than anything else. Under normal circumstances almost everyone thinking of making a ventilator wouldn't even consider it.

Bill Peterson joined  the room.12:06 PM

James Newton12:06 PM
@Haddington Dynamics Got one of our Dexter robot to tend a laser cutter, removing the finished face shield, advancing the roll of film, then pushing the buttons on the PC and cutter to slice the next one. Video here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/12EFcOq_v_aMKLEtCa4Xkb5v0TVQXeFGv/view

luther12:06 PM
I am certainly looking for medical advisors and collaborators, reaching out everywhere I know how

Joshua Young12:07 PM
Car sensors are way to high of pressure...

Yes what can we do with uv-c lights?

James Newton12:07 PM
For anyone who doesn't know, Dexters are open source and we won the Hackaday prize in 2018. There is also a really cool hack to make a vacuum pickup without a vacuum source.

One thing struck me while watching the Real Engineering video and Rohin's great explanation of barotrauma: why not revive the "iron lung" method of negative pressure ventilation?

Josh Starnes12:08 PM
Hello all

Josh Starnes12:08 PM
I am joining the COvid chat

Hi @Josh Starnes - you're in the right place!

Arthur12:09 PM
Joshua, no they are on an intake manifold, known as MAF (mass airflow sensor)

profdc912:09 PM
I have two documents I have written on disinfecting PPE: one on UV, the other using dry heat. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1NDP7rlqqLaXC3IBCSmcZSbiw1HuZUOUf https://drive.google.com/open?id=1wF4yYgSE1n0Jqewb8JdwosTRhx0X89wF . I do not pretend these are ideal solutions, but there are likely to be many instances where sufficient PPE is unavailable as well as the means to disinfect and reuse it.

James Newton12:09 PM
Oops... apparently I wasn't supposed to share that video yet. LOL. Oh well. Better resolution version coming soon.

christian12:10 PM
That's intersting, Dan. I thought of those halls fill of people on iron lings when the first fild hospitals were set up in London, becuase the layiut was the same. Do iron lungs to the same job as what we know as ventilators?

DrG12:10 PM
An important part of a mitigation plan is to trace infections. We know that there are asymptomatic infectors as well as incubation time infectors. When an infection is discovered, the mitigation plan includes tracing all of the contacts. Your Phone GPS is an obvious candidate and many apps exist. Can we easily find apps to PRIVATELY provide route tracing and those even capable of "networking" individual logs, like within a family, to identify contacts? Are there any recommendations? Not very provocative, but a useful tool - no?

[skaarj]12:11 PM
...might be.... for people not obsessed by their privacy, or for people in country side (such as world war 2 survivers) who have no idea how to use a phone

Arthur12:11 PM
google is doing this analysis:

Steven.Carr12:11 PM
@[skaarj] You can use an acetone vapor bath to seal the surfaces

Arthur12:11 PM

https://www.macleans.ca/society/technology/what-google-data-says-about-canadian-vs-u-s-social-distancing-efforts/

MACLEANS.CA PHILIPPE J. FOURNIER

What Google data says about Canadian vs. U.S. social distancing efforts - Macleans.ca

Philippe J. Fournier: In reducing travel, Canada's most populous provinces rank well. Trump-backing U.S. states are at the bottom. Last Friday, L'actualité magazine political bureau chief Alec Castonguay published an analysis of Google data released a few days ago on the mobility changes of people around the world due to the spread of the coronavirus.

Read this on Macleans.ca

@christian - yes, but in the opposite way. Modern ventilators use positive pressure to force air into the lungs, eventually causing trauma in the alevoli. Iron lungs use a vacuum chamber around the patient's thorax to pull air into the lungs, more like how the diaphragm and intercostal muscles do naturally by expanding the chest cavity

[skaarj]12:12 PM
@Steven.Carr thank you

People have survived decades in an iron lung. Ventilators are much more time limited.

luther12:13 PM
Iron lungs are not very portable

DrG12:13 PM
Yes, I have seen the google activity maps - how does that work on the individual level? https://www.google.com/covid19/mobility/

profdc912:13 PM
Why are iron lungs no longer used?

Josh Starnes12:13 PM
So I have been super busy, I have been working 3d printing parts for products for people to use to help protect themselves

1. Firefly UVC handheld lamp , 2. Firefly mini UVC that is about the size of a toothbrush holder, 3. desk/ room area rapid air sterilizer

Joshua Young12:13 PM
In China you have a QR code. The government tacks where you go and who you have been in contact with. Your green QR code will turn yellow or red if you have been near someone who was infected or tested positive. Probably can't work here.

@luther - True, but their development basically stopped in the 1950s after the polio vaccine came along. I wonder if a compact version could be built with modern materials. perhaps even a wearable iron lung, like a wetsuit vest that expands by itself.

luther12:15 PM
Another key point is letting the patient start breathing on his/her own, when he/she does decide to take a breath voluntarily, and ventilators that transition well here can help wean people off them

DrG12:15 PM
@Joshua Young Agreed. Let's assume that you are a family of five and one of you becomes symptomatic, how do you uncover the contacts?

profdc912:15 PM
To make an iron lung, a cavity would be constructed around the patient to apply negative pressure.

Steven.Carr12:15 PM

http://blog.modernmechanix.com/diy-iron-lung/

MODERN MECHANIX

DIY Iron Lung - Popular Mechanics (Jan, 1952)

Could a life have been saved in your community if a mechanical respirator had been at hand for immediate use? Often just a matter of minutes means the difference between life or death for a little child stricken with polio, or a victim of drowning or a paralyzing accident.

Read this on Modern Mechanix

luther12:16 PM
Wow

Joshua Young12:16 PM
@DrG uncover that information with a military state or martial law...

[skaarj]12:16 PM
From what information I gathered, in the advanced stage of COVID-19 the lungs are filling with something like a foam. It is an allergic reaction of the immune system. Some hoses are required to suck that and free the respiratory paths - so this requires some invasive methods. Iron lung is unable to do that

Francisco Sanz joined  the room.12:16 PM

[skaarj]12:17 PM
I am sorry I do not know the proper English medical terms, but I think you get the idea.

@Steven.Carr - Awesome find! People forget how terrifying polio was. Every summer like clockwork, some kid went to bed fine and woke up paralyzed.

luther12:17 PM
but might be a better first assisted breathing if available

luther12:17 PM
iron lung

Josh Starnes12:18 PM

Josh Starnes12:18 PM

luther12:18 PM
take me to your liter

Josh Starnes12:18 PM

Josh Starnes12:18 PM

@[skaarj] - Pretty sure you can still suction a patient who's in an iron lung. But to be clear, I'm not advocating DIY iron lungs as a substitute for ventilators. Just saying I find the science behind both fascinating.

[skaarj]12:19 PM
Also, a great source of information is sciencedirect.com -> at the middle of March there were some articles stating that infected patients respond to HIV treatment... then those articles vanished. But it is known for COVID19 to mess with both the immune and respiratory systems. Is this virus some kind of half-breed between SARS and HIV?

Josh Starnes12:19 PM
ok sorry, I thought it would group those together

riley.august12:19 PM
Hey guys. I'm from Robots Everywhere, we've been mostly focused on PPE and filtered breathing equipment since late February. If you'd like any insights on the designs we've shared with the community I'll try to be around in the chat.

@Josh Starnes - what are those? Disinfection lights?

[skaarj]12:19 PM
@Dan Maloney I am only sharing what I know. Please do not be offended due to my poor English medical terms...

luther12:19 PM
I saw an article that posited a hybrid between two Corona viruses

Josh Starnes12:20 PM
Yes Dan , a design you can print yourself and I have been making them like mad for others as well

luther12:20 PM
had characteristics of two previously known viruses

@[skaarj] - No offense taken. We're all doing our best!

Josh Starnes12:21 PM

@Josh Starnes - So UV light? What's the light source?

riley.august12:21 PM
@luther Let's focus on what we know and can deal with. I'm not going to get into the origins of COVID19 here, but I will just sum it up with "the WHO knows exactly where it came from".

riley.august12:21 PM
If we get some kind of crazy retroviral mutation, that's a nightmare scenario that frankly, having breathing equipment and PPE ready to go is the best thing we can do to prevent.

Josh Starnes12:22 PM
LB1000 or similar E17 thread Germicidal Mercury Vapor lamp 3 watts

luther12:22 PM
First stop the bleeding

luther12:22 PM
metaphorically

profdc912:22 PM
https://newatlas.com/medical/british-engineers-modern-iron-lung-covid-19-ventilator-alternative/ what

profdc912:22 PM

https://www.theengineer.co.uk/exovent-covid-19-ventilator/

THE ENGINEER THE ENGINEER

exovent iron lung concept offers alternative to Covid-19 ventilators

The iron lung has been reimagined by a multidisciplinary team to potentially give the NHS an alternative model of ventilator to treat Covid-19 patients. Dubbed exovent, the Negative Pressure Ventilator (NPV) is said to be non-invasive, so patients won't need to have their windpipes intubated.

Read this on The Engineer

[skaarj]12:22 PM
.....does any UV-eraser for EPROM memory work for disinfection?

@luther - In EMT school, it was ABC - airway, breathing, and circulation ;-)

luther12:23 PM
Yes, good mnemonic

Josh Starnes12:23 PM

@Josh Starnes - Does 3 W give enough UV-C flux to kill the bugs?

Josh Starnes12:23 PM

profdc912:23 PM
An iron lung might be a situation where a simple air bladder and cam system could provide sufficient periodic negative pressure.

profdc912:24 PM
Has anyone studied barotrauma with an iron lung?

Nicolas Tremblay12:24 PM
wattage doesn't matter, it only changes how long you need to light up the area

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