I would double-triple-emphasize the context though. Especially newbies often can't see the forest for the trees, and think they have a very technical problem when they've really just gone as far down the wrong path as they possibly can.
Context is super important for diagnosing the meta-problem rather than just leading them on to another insurmountable hurdle.
The other question type that I really like to answer is "how would you go about troubleshooting this?". It may be a simple turn of phrase, but it really turns the tone of the ask from "give me a fish" to "help me learn to fish".
Case in point: I was having trouble with some systemd crap, and had no idea how to find information in the system logs about how the dependencies among startup scripts were working (Linux arcana). Rather than a "why isn't this working" I went in with "how can I diagnose why this isn't working" and got some great help that taught me a lot in very little time.
(Never solved the problem, though. Systemd sucks. But at least I learned how to trace things through the logging system. Maybe it'll help with other problems later on.)
Yes, this too is quite a tough problem. It's a very difficult trade-off with reward systems. They increase participation and (probably) improve things overall (though with corporate customer service the goal is usually lowering cost rather than improving quality), but it's easy for any reward system to backfire by creating perverse incentives.
Even without a point system or other reward structure, humans are always fallible. I don't have answers to many of these perplexing issues. But I do know one thing. You can never really control what other people do, only influence. Today many forums are horrible, but others do pretty well. On sites where a positive culture starts to develop, you do see very constructive conversations and corrections for wrong info.
I do believe we humans, as a worldwide culture, are at the very infancy of collectively learning how to effectively communicate & collaborate with each other. Like the early days of moving pictures & television, decades passes before people discovered how to effectively communicate with this new medium. My optimistic hope is for gradual improvement everywhere as we slowly learn how to truly make use of this amazing communication technology that's only been widely available for a couple decades so far.
This knowledge has been lost and rediscovered many times over internet's history. Your article is a great addition, but it would be nice if you added those links somewhere near end:
Yes, the classic "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way" is filled with great advice. So is the lengthy posting checklist Arduino has on their forum. But do these long documents really work in practice?
My impression, which admittedly is based only on anecdotes & personal experience (~20,000 messages written over the last 6 years), is these long lists fail to make an impression on most humans before they post their first question, making that important first impression.
I very likely will follow your advice, to add an addendum with references. About that specifically, while I believe the Smart Way page is very good, I'm deeply skeptical the Eternal September wikipedia page adds any value. Yes, I was on usenet newsgroups in the late 1980s and early 90s. Yes, I feel the nostalgia. But I just don't see how that helps. If you'll explain how it's relevant to helping novices & new users in these modern times, I'm willing to listen.
Ah, I was just looking for this link in reply, too.
I remember this being posted in the topic of an old IRC channel I used to hang out in, and the sheer length of it is terrifying and not helpful, and I don't think I ever got through the whole thing.
I especially get annoyed when I describe how to do something and even post documentation so anyone can tinker with it to their heart's content, and still get requests to waste my time to tailor it to one stranger's specific needs. I don't mind dropping hints to help a someone along to get closer to what they want but I'm not gonna just do everything for them when it's clear they don't wanna put any effort forward themselves.
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This seems like great advice to me.
I would double-triple-emphasize the context though. Especially newbies often can't see the forest for the trees, and think they have a very technical problem when they've really just gone as far down the wrong path as they possibly can.
Context is super important for diagnosing the meta-problem rather than just leading them on to another insurmountable hurdle.
The other question type that I really like to answer is "how would you go about troubleshooting this?". It may be a simple turn of phrase, but it really turns the tone of the ask from "give me a fish" to "help me learn to fish".
Case in point: I was having trouble with some systemd crap, and had no idea how to find information in the system logs about how the dependencies among startup scripts were working (Linux arcana). Rather than a "why isn't this working" I went in with "how can I diagnose why this isn't working" and got some great help that taught me a lot in very little time.
(Never solved the problem, though. Systemd sucks. But at least I learned how to trace things through the logging system. Maybe it'll help with other problems later on.)
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Don't forget writing a good title. I can't be bothered with vague, unspecific titles or attempts to clickbait me.
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[this comment has been deleted]
Yes, this too is quite a tough problem. It's a very difficult trade-off with reward systems. They increase participation and (probably) improve things overall (though with corporate customer service the goal is usually lowering cost rather than improving quality), but it's easy for any reward system to backfire by creating perverse incentives.
Even without a point system or other reward structure, humans are always fallible. I don't have answers to many of these perplexing issues. But I do know one thing. You can never really control what other people do, only influence. Today many forums are horrible, but others do pretty well. On sites where a positive culture starts to develop, you do see very constructive conversations and corrections for wrong info.
I do believe we humans, as a worldwide culture, are at the very infancy of collectively learning how to effectively communicate & collaborate with each other. Like the early days of moving pictures & television, decades passes before people discovered how to effectively communicate with this new medium. My optimistic hope is for gradual improvement everywhere as we slowly learn how to truly make use of this amazing communication technology that's only been widely available for a couple decades so far.
Are you sure? yes | no
This knowledge has been lost and rediscovered many times over internet's history. Your article is a great addition, but it would be nice if you added those links somewhere near end:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September
http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
Are you sure? yes | no
Yes, the classic "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way" is filled with great advice. So is the lengthy posting checklist Arduino has on their forum. But do these long documents really work in practice?
My impression, which admittedly is based only on anecdotes & personal experience (~20,000 messages written over the last 6 years), is these long lists fail to make an impression on most humans before they post their first question, making that important first impression.
I very likely will follow your advice, to add an addendum with references. About that specifically, while I believe the Smart Way page is very good, I'm deeply skeptical the Eternal September wikipedia page adds any value. Yes, I was on usenet newsgroups in the late 1980s and early 90s. Yes, I feel the nostalgia. But I just don't see how that helps. If you'll explain how it's relevant to helping novices & new users in these modern times, I'm willing to listen.
Are you sure? yes | no
Hmm, I think you're right, that Eternal September page will only alienate new users. I didn't think about it enough.
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Ah, I was just looking for this link in reply, too.
I remember this being posted in the topic of an old IRC channel I used to hang out in, and the sheer length of it is terrifying and not helpful, and I don't think I ever got through the whole thing.
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Thank you for the article, this is excellent advice. I wonder if you would mind if I translated it to Polish and posted on a forum I read (forbot.pl)?
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Yes, please translate & share! :)
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Thank you! It's published here: https://forbot.pl/forum/topic/12581-jak-otrzymac-pomoc-od-obcych-ludzi-w-internecie/
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@ꝺeshipu - Good translation, thanks!
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Should be everyone's avatar pic in the arduino forum for example. Soooo many of these "I want this. Pls post code" posts, it's annoying...
It's like that on the whole Internet, especially in forums and comment sections of blogs..
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I especially get annoyed when I describe how to do something and even post documentation so anyone can tinker with it to their heart's content, and still get requests to waste my time to tailor it to one stranger's specific needs. I don't mind dropping hints to help a someone along to get closer to what they want but I'm not gonna just do everything for them when it's clear they don't wanna put any effort forward themselves.
Are you sure? yes | no