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LoRaTube

A compact and rugged LoRa repeater designed for long-range communication and 5+ years of off-grid operation using only alkaline batteries.

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In France, on the 433 MHz ISM band, the ANFR enforces a maximum transmission power of +10 mW ERP (≈ +10 dBm); any attempt to increase range by raising the output power is illegal. However, the LoRa modulation was designed with very high sensitivity in reception (up to –137 dBm in SF12 / 125 kHz), which corresponds to a radio link budget of at least 150 dB. Under optimal propagation conditions (open field with no obstacle, line of sight), this link budget is enough to span tens of kilometers.

That’s why a repeater is necessary: to fully exploit the available link budget and reach long distances, the transmitter’s location must be carefully chosen. By placing the repeater at a high point — a hill, tower, or treetop with a clear line of sight — a single module can cover several tens of kilometers without exceeding the legally allowed transmission power. This strategy is at the heart of the LoRaTube concept: keeping a compliant, very low-cost, discreet, and autonomous transmitter (> 5 years), while maximizing coverage through optimal placement.

Why LoRaTube?

Because this project does not use solar panels — it relies instead on alkaline batteries housed in a PVC tube. Most LoRa repeaters (whether DIY or commercial) depend on solar panels paired with lithium-ion batteries, MPPT regulators, and charge management circuitry.

This leads to:

  • a high cost (often €150 or more);

  • some mechanical and electronic fragility;

  • a bulky footprint, making the device more visible and attractive to theft;

  • and above all, poor reliability in winter: in temperate climates, solar production can drop fivefold between summer and winter, forcing designers to oversize the system just to maintain basic service.



What We’re Proposing – Design Objectives

The goal is to build an ultra-discreet, robust LoRa repeater using widely available and very low-cost materials — specifically alkaline D-size (LR20) batteries and standard 40 mm / 50 mm PVC pipes for the enclosure and mast. The system is designed to run for multiple years in outdoor environments, including locations with no sunlight (under vegetation, in barns, etc.), for under €50 total, including the LoRa module and enclosure.

Note: This is version 1 of the device, and it is not yet final.
It provides around 2 months of autonomy, but it has already helped validate key design choices (mechanical layout, RF range, propagation testing).
A version 2 PCB is currently under development, with improved autonomy and resilience — including a watchdog, hardware timer, and complete shutdown of the Pico and buck converter between active phases.
Feel free to reach out if you have suggestions, improvements, or strong electronics skills — I'd be happy to discuss it.

Note 2: We are currently editing a video showing real-world radio propagation tests with the LoRaTube installed at Suc au May.
👉 It will be added to the logs soon.

                      ______________________________________________________________

🔋 Power Supply

The power supply is based on 18 LR20 alkaline batteries (D size) in series, housed in a compact enclosure less than 50 mm in diameter.
This battery choice offers several practical advantages: LR20 cells are inexpensive (less than €1 each in most supermarkets) and widely available. Each LR20 battery typically provides 12,000 to 18,000 mAh, or 18 to 27 Wh. With 18 batteries, the total energy amounts to approximately 486 Wh, for a total cost of €13.30 (5 packs × €2.66), which translates to just ~€0.024/Wh — a ridiculously low cost compared to lithium alternatives.

For comparison:

  • A 18650 lithium cell offers ~11 Wh for ~€4 → €0.36/Wh (15× more expensive)

  • A pack of ten flat lithium cells (~52 Wh) costs ~€20 → €0.38/Wh

Wiring 18 batteries in series raises the voltage to 27 V (18 × 1.5 V). The cost per delivered kilowatt-hour remains extremely competitive: around €13/kWh, compared to over €250/kWh for a solar + lithium setup (including MPPT regulator) — a 20× cost advantage.

These batteries also have very low self-discharge (< 1% per year), enabling several years of operation as long as the current draw stays low.

Another benefit: the batteries fit neatly inside a standard 40 mm...

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PickAndPlace_PCB_V4-LoraTube_2025-11-02.csv

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Gerber_V4-LoraTube_PCB_V4-LoraTube_2025-11-02.zip

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BOM_V4-LoraTube_2025-11-02(1).csv

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Schematic_V4-LoraTube_2025-11-02.png

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LoRaTUBE V3.json

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  • 1 × PI PICO
  • 1 × EBYTE E22400T22D module LoRa UART at 22dBm
  • 1 × MP2451 buck converter for the 5V bus tension
  • 1 × MAX8212 voltage supervisor to trig the voltage in supercapacitor
  • 1 × TPS2553 current limiter to reduce current in supercapacitor

View all 14 components

  • Firmware architecture (WIP)

    Bertrand Selva3 days ago 0 comments

    Hackaday log – Firmware architecture (Work in progress)

    I am currently writing the firmware.
    Time is limited at the moment and I am quite busy, so progress is steady but deliberately slow.

    I am aligning the codebase with a new firmware “skeleton” I am developing:
    https://github.com/Bertrand-selvasystems/firmware_skeleton_espidf

    Architecture rules

    Drivers (module_*.c) are self-contained

    • No FreeRTOS includes
    • No queues
    • No event bits
    • Clean C API only: init / read / write / deinit

    Tasks (task_*.c) orchestrate hardware access through drivers
    Tasks are the only place where the system:

    • uses FreeRTOS primitives (queues, event groups, notifications)
    • implements retry and delay logic
    • sets, clears and waits on event bits
    • manages health monitoring and fault handling

    APIs (API_*.c) talk to tasks, not to hardware

    • They provide intent-level functions
    • They hide internal queues and events from the rest of the application

    Configuration is split into two layers

    • Frozen hardware configuration (system_cfg.*): wiring, addresses, frequencies (const, never modified)
    • Runtime state: handles, flags, counters, queues, event groups

    Layers and dependencies

    app_main / initialization
    API_* (facade, intent-level calls)
    task_* (FreeRTOS actors, ownership and logic)
    module_* (drivers, hardware access only)

    Allowed dependencies

    • module_* may depend only on ESP-IDF drivers (I2C, UART, GPIO, etc.), never on system_*
    • task_* may depend on system_types, system_queues, system_state, system_faults and module_*
    • API_* may depend on task-facing command queues and system_* but never on hardware

    Design rationale

    The goal is clean, stable firmware, especially by enforcing one service per critical hardware block.
    This guarantees zero concurrent access to the same peripheral, even in unexpected edge cases, which is a major stability gain.

    This point is absolutely central for a system designed to run unattended for five years, or close to it, such as a remote LoRa repeater deployed in the field.

    At this stage, I have implemented:

    • the I2C service
    • the PCA (I/O expander) service

    The current work-in-progress code is available here:
    https://github.com/Bertrand-selvasystems/loratube_firmware

    There is still a lot to do, but the foundation is now in place. 

    The LEDs are blinking, which is usually a good sign.

  • Response to feedback on D-cell lifetime

    Bertrand Selva12/06/2025 at 10:47 0 comments

    I’ve read the comments on the Hackaday.com article : https://hackaday.com/2025/12/02/lora-repeater-lasts-5-years-on-pvc-pipe-and-d-cells/.
    Thanks for the feedback.

    Most questions focus on two points

    1. the real-world lifetime of alkaline D cells outdoors (You’re right: this is likely the main structural limitation of the current design), and

    2. PCB protection in case a cell leaks.

    I About alkaline D-cell leakage

    Leakage can occur for two main reasons:

    1. Deep discharge inside a series pack

    At end of life, in any series string, the weakest cell will eventually be forced into reverse polarity if current keeps flowing.
    This pushes the chemistry outside its intended operating region, causing:

    • gas generation,

    • internal overpressure,

    • seal rupture,
      → leading to electrolyte leakage.

    In my design, I continuously monitor pack voltage and put the device into a almost full shutdown if the voltage drops too low.
    The whole point is to avoid that deep-discharge region which dramatically increases leakage risk.

    2. Mechanical/assembly defects in cheap cells

    This is the downside of the “500 Wh for €13” deal.
    At that price point, you don’t get telecom-grade cells with industrial QC.
    It’s a compromise.
    As it stands, this is a structural limitation of the LoRaTube concept.

    II Protecting the PCB/electronics in case of leakage

    7S3 battery configuration

    The mechanical design answers most concerns:

    • the PCB is above,

    • the battery pack is below,

    • and the two volumes are physically separated by:

      • the 50 mm “coffee-cup” internal support, screwed into the 40 mm tube,

      • plus the piece that provides the positive terminal contact for the last cell.

    The electronics compartment and the battery compartment are mechanically isolated.
    If a cell leaks, the electrolyte cannot reach the PCB.
    And if the cells become impossible to remove, the entire tube section can simply be discarded (a 2-meter PVC tube costs around €2).

    III/ Toward a more resilient battery architecture

    The comments are valid: if we’re aiming for extreme robustness, having the whole system fail because of one leaking cell or one failed cell is not ideal.

    I’m considering a new architecture:

    • instead of one long 18S1 string,

    • use three parallel packs of 7 cells in series each → 7SP3 configuration.

    7S3 battery configuration

    This gives an input voltage between ~7 V and ~12 V depending on the state of charge.
    The buck converter runs more efficiently and with lower losses in that range.

    The obvious risk with parallel packs is cross-charging, which would destroy the weaker packs quickly.

    Low-tech fix: Schottky diodes (passive ORing)

    The simplest and most reliable solution is to place a Schottky diode in series with each 7-cell string:

    • each 7S pack has its own diode,

    • the three diodes meet at the input rail of the buck converter.

    Expected behavior

    Example:

    • Pack A: 10.5 V

    • Pack B: 10.2 V

    • Pack C: 10.0 V

    • Schottky drop ≈ 0.3 V

    Effective voltages seen at the bus:

    • A → ~10.2 V

    • B → ~9.9 V

    • C → ~9.7 V

    Result:

    • Only Pack A supplies current initially (it has the highest voltage).

    • As it discharges, its voltage drops.

    • Once it falls below Pack B (diode-included), Pack B automatically takes over.

    • Then Pack C, etc.

    This gives a very primitive form of current balancing, with zero active electronics.

    Benefits

    • The system keeps running even if one pack fails, or even two packs.

    • Leakage or a broken contact in one 7-cell string no longer kills the entire node.

    • You move from a single point of failure (18S1)
      to a system with graceful degradation (7S3 + diodes).

    This matches the project philosophy:
    long lifetime outdoors with simple, low-cost, repairable technology.

    We could even consider 3, 4 or 5 parallel packs depending on:

    • outdoor mechanical constraints,

    • budget,

    • desired level of redundancy,

    • available space inside the tube.

  • Separation between D pack and PCB

    Bertrand Selva12/04/2025 at 19:44 0 comments

    I will complete the log later with the elements I was able to collect from the article on hackaday.com about the LoRaTube. There were a lot of comments about the long-term behavior of D cells. You’re right, I do have a modification to address this issue.

    In the meantime, here is, through this diagram, the answer to one of the issues that was raised: there is indeed a clear separation between the electronics (which are in any case above the batteries) and the batteries, via the part that holds the 50 mm tube and looks like a coffee cup.


  • Bring-up of LoRaTube PCB V4

    Bertrand Selva11/30/2025 at 13:59 0 comments

    V4 is good enough to start firmware work !
    This log takes stock of the bring-up: what works, what still blocks, and what will be fixed in V5.



    Power, Supercap and Precharge

    On the power front, the foundation is solid: the 5V comes out as expected, and the nominally 3.3V rail is currently about 3.0V. This is actually good for consumption, but offers less brownout margin. Still, in the current configuration everything starts and runs fine. To recover a true 3.3V, for V5 just set R45 to about 267kΩ.

    The 5V supercap performs exactly as intended: at 33dBm TX, the buck handles E22 bursts without flinching. On a generous burst of 1000 characters, cap voltage only drops from 4.91V to 4.79V, showing that the buck supplies its max 500mA and the supercap delivers the rest (about 700mA at 33dBm TX).

    However, an important point was confirmed for power-up sequencing: if you try to start with the supercap at 0V, the buck sees a near-short, goes into protection and collapses. By precharging the supercap to ~4V before enabling the buck, everything latches instantly and the system stabilizes. V5 will have to integrate this behavior in the power-up strategy (not sure yet how).


    How I Measure Power Consumption: Reading the Supercap

    To quantify power consumption, especially in ECO mode, the only truly reliable method is to watch the slope of the supercap voltage over time.

    The buck does not draw a steady current: it operates in recharge bursts spaced by a few minutes. Between bursts, current seen at the battery pack drops to about 3.4µA (buck off). In that phase, the supercap supplies the 5V rail.

    I ≈ C × ΔV / Δt
    with C ≈ 20F for the supercap.

    • E22 NORMAL mode + ESP32-C3 on:
      Measurements: 5.10V at t=0s and 4.91V after 240s. The 0.19V drop over 240s corresponds to an average current of:
      I ≈ 20 × 0.19 / 240 ≈ 15.8 mA
      Which is in the 16–18 mA range, consistent with what is expected for TX/active mode.
    • E22 WOR mode + ESP32-C3 on:
      Same method, 5.06V down to 4.992V after 120s, i.e. 0.068V drop.
      I ≈ 20 × 0.068 / 120 ≈ 11.3 mA
      Which matches the announced ~11 mA.
    • WOR + ESP32-C3 deep sleep:
      Measures go from 4.915V to 4.907V over 330s (8mV drop):
      I ≈ 20 × 0.008 / 330 ≈ 0.000485 A ≈ 485µA
      So about 480µA in “deep idle” (C3 deep sleep, E22 in WOR, RTC & FRAM powered). Theoretically, with no TX, this gives several decades of autonomy on a pack of 19 LR20s at 18Ah (513Wh). In reality, the cells will die of old age before they run out.
      Exactly the goal: hardware is no longer the limiting factor.

    From the Pack’s Point of View in PWM Mode (no ECO)

    With the buck in classic PWM mode (ECO disabled), pack-side measurements confirm the orders of magnitude but the buck’s quiescent current in PWM mode is very high.
    With C3, RTC, FRAM and E22 in RX: current is about 9.44mA @ 25V.
    Switching E22 to WOR drops it to ~7.62mA.
    By difference, E22 in RX thus consumes about 1.82mA @ 25V, i.e. about 9mA @ 5V : matching the module datasheet and the current calculated from the supercap voltage drop.

    The C3 itself, active but idle, is around 2.82mA @ 25V, i.e. ~22mA @ 3.3V (about 70mW). No surprise here either.


    Power Rail Noise: PWM vs ECO

    I re-did noise measurements with a T3100 probe and a proper ground spring. This completely changes the result from my previous bring-up, where the probe ground was hacked and grossly overestimated the noise (especially in TX, where I picked up noise from the LoRa module’s RF emission).

    In WOR mode, buck in ECO, noise on the 5V rail is between 0.8 and 1.6mV peak-to-peak. This is excellent. At 33dBm TX, still in ECO, it climbs to about 6.4mV p-p, with occasional peaks around 7.2mV. Switch the buck to PWM, and you get up to about 8mV p-p. Paradoxically, it's a bit noisier (juste a little bit).

    But it’s still very, very good. In all cases, the measured spectrum stays clean, flat, no significant...

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  • V4 PCB received

    Bertrand Selva11/27/2025 at 10:23 0 comments

    I received the assembled V4 PCB today, along with five unassembled boards. Many thanks to PCBWay. I’m short on time and have a lot to catch up on right now, but I’ll get to the bring-up soon.


  • Part Failure and Structural Reinforcement

    Bertrand Selva11/26/2025 at 13:27 0 comments

    Four Months Outdoors

    After four months outside and the first cold spells, here’s a status update on the mechanical side.
    I dropped the LoRaTube and broke the part at the end of the tube (the piece that’s glued to the PVC pipe).

    In addition, the end piece of the assembly,  the one bearing the weight of the whole battery stack and the contact pressure from the springs, had been printed too “light” and had slowly deformed under load. I redesigned it as a beefier part, matching the diameter of the new glued sleeves, and printed it with higher density (40% infill + gyroid pattern).



    New Design

    In hindsight, I had printed it too thin and not dense enough. I reworked the cap as well as the glued end-piece of the PVC tube, increasing the wall thicknesses and printing at 40% infill with a gyroid pattern.

    I should also mention that I changed printers, moving from my old Ender 3 V2 to a Bambu Lab machine (huge upgrade). The part, even though it is still PLA, comes out noticeably denser. Under-extrusion on the Ender? Slicer differences? Whatever the cause, the whole assembly feels much more solid now.

    Here is the new end piece of the assembly, which both closes the tube and holds the batteries in place.

    Here are the new end caps for the PVC tube.


    And here is the new mounting bracket that holds the 50 mm PVC tube (the tube that carries the electronics).

    And the end part of the tube : 


    I also changed the part that holds the 50 mm tube. It’s thicker, I increased its diameter, and I printed it with 40% gyroid infill as well. It’s the green part in the photos below.

    Resilience

    In any case, it’s by iterating that I’ll converge towards a system that’s robust in all conditions (Soyuz technique!).
    The length of the 40 mm-diameter PVC tube to cut is 115.8 mm. By cutting it to the correct length, I was able to remove the crescent-shaped spacer I had added earlier.

    In the last photo, you can see the device responsible for making contact with the positive terminal of the last cell.
    It consists of two parts that can move relative to each other. Contact pressure is provided by three compression springs. The travel is about 15 mm. The system looks robust and works well so far…

    I’ll leave the device assembled over the coming months. I’ll only bring it back into the lab when I receive the V4 PCB, if it looks OK for an outdoor test.







  • Pictures of the Assembled PCB for the LoRaTube V4

    Bertrand Selva11/17/2025 at 09:53 0 comments

    Here are a few photos I received this morning of the fully assembled PCB, manufactured by PCBWay.
    This is Revision V4.

    The build quality is excellent ; clean soldering, crisp edges, and a layout that finally looks exactly as intended.

    Once the board is in my hands, I will publish a detailed bring-up report for this V4 revision as for the V3 revision: power-on tests, rail validation, firmware loading, radio checks, and early measurements.

    More to come.















  • V4 IN PRODUCTION

    Bertrand Selva11/04/2025 at 09:20 0 comments

    The Gerbers and BOM have been sent to production : the V4 is now in production.
    This revision marks, I hope, the closure of the hardware development phase and the beginning of firmware optimization.

    Next phase: 

    • bring-up of the V4 in few weeks 
    • firmware (il everything is OK) : Focus will shift to thefinite-state control, FRAM ring buffer, and the orchestration of wake/sleep cycles with deterministic timing and energy budgets.

    Many thanks again to PCBWay for their continuous support in this next iteration.

  • FRAM Data Logging Specification

    Bertrand Selva11/02/2025 at 22:56 0 comments

    Purpose and Memory Technology

    Logs are critical for monitoring LoRaTube, confirming real-world performance over time, and, if necessary, identifying failures or design flaws.

    This document records the reasoning and choices that led to the selected memory technology. The aim is to ensure reliable long-term logging with minimal power consumption and maximum resilience.

    SD cards, though common in consumer projects, were ruled out. Their fragility is well known: rapid cell wear, poor reliability over long periods without activity, unpredictable wear-leveling, and a tendency to become corrupted or unwritable after power loss. Random corruption, freezes, access slowness, and inrush current are all deal-breakers for an ultra-low-power, resilient system.

    Serial EEPROMs were also considered. They are inexpensive and widely available. However, their endurance is limited (typically one million write cycles per cell, much less in harsh temperature conditions), and write operations are page-based, which is not well-suited for the intended logging patterns. Write times can be significant, increasing the risk of data corruption during resets or brownouts. Data retention is often not guaranteed beyond a few years, especially with wide temperature variations.

    SPI Flash offers large storage but shares many drawbacks: limited endurance, mandatory page erase before writing, complex software wear-leveling, and a real risk of “bricking” the chip if power is lost during write operations. Frequent updates to a few bytes always force a compromise between wear and software complexity. Additionally, available pin count on the C3 is limited, with no other active SPI devices in the design.

    FRAM (Ferroelectric RAM) emerged as the solution. Key features:

    • Very fast access (read/write in a few microseconds)
    • No write latency
    • Virtually unlimited endurance (ideal for frequently updated counters)
    • Very low operating power

    FRAM requires no pre-erasure or software wear-leveling, never blocks on sudden power loss, and provides full-speed access regardless of the frequency or distribution of writes. Data can be written or read byte by byte. It is also known for its resistance to EMI, and data retention exceeds ten years, making it well suited for embedded data loggers requiring high reliability.

    There are two minor trade-offs: the chosen device (one of the few available on Aliexpress) draws about 9 µA in idle. While this is low, it is not entirely negligible over several years. 


    The FRAM is mounted on a large breakout board and is installed via female headers, allowing easy extraction for content analysis without soldering.


    Daily Log Format (16 bytes, little-endian)

    Available storage is 32 kB, so a daily log format with counters was selected. Counters are stored directly in FRAM to take advantage of its resilience to repeated writes and absence of paging.

    Assuming a five-year lifespan:

    32 kB / (5 years × 365 days/year) ≈ 17 bytes per day.

    The chosen log format is 16 bytes per day:

    Field Bytes Description
    timestamp 4 Unix UTC (seconds)
    midnight_temp 1 Temperature at midnight (−15…+35 °C normal, −50…+70 °C if TEMP_EXT=1)
    midnight_voltage 1 Main voltage (Vbat/Text, 10–32 V, LSB ≈ 86 mV)
    noon_temp 1 Temperature at noon (RTC or nearest sample)
    noon_voltage 1 Voltage at noon (same rule)
    wake_rx 2 Number of radio wake-ups, saturates at 0xFFFF
    ratio_rxtrue_per_wake_q8 1 Q8 ratio: (REVEIL_RADIO == 0) ? 0 : clamp(round(255 × TRUE_RX / REVEIL_RADIO))
    ratio_tx_per_rxtrue_q8 1 Q8 ratio: (TRUE_RX == 0) ? 0 : clamp(round(255 × TX / TRUE_RX))
    flags 1 See below
    noise_min_dbm 1 Min radio noise, −130…0 dBm (LSB ≈ 0.51 dB)
    noise_max_dbm 1 Max radio noise
    crc8 1 CRC-8 with first 15 bytes

    Ratio Calculation (bytes 7 & 8)...

    Read more »

  • GERBER FILES FOR V4

    Bertrand Selva11/01/2025 at 15:12 0 comments

    You will find the Gerber files, the component placement file, the BOM, the schematic, and the EasyEDA JSON edit file for V4 in the project files.

    The PCB will go into production for this V4, once again thanks to PCBWay. Their ongoing support makes this project possible.

    Bring-up is scheduled in a few weeks.

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Discussions

kasual wrote 08/16/2025 at 11:41 point

Now, as for the topology of your physical transceiver; here I am learning from you Bertrand. I am seeing some very elegant use of iff the shelf modules. I've just gotten into this portion of the project. What I've seen so far makes me want to do a work up if your design on my white board and work through all the calculations that lead your component choices. There's a lot to be learned there.

  Are you sure? yes | no

kasual wrote 08/11/2025 at 02:30 point

I believe this was the first site with a kit. I've been watching this tech since about 2006.

https://jantecnl.synology.me/en/diy-windbelt-for-simple-and-free-energy/

  Are you sure? yes | no

kasual wrote 08/11/2025 at 02:15 point

And yet another MicroPower concept

https://www.instructables.com/HOW-TO-build-cheap-VHS-tape-WINDBELT-generator/

  Are you sure? yes | no

kasual wrote 08/10/2025 at 22:42 point

33 dBm equates to 2 watts. 3x5/8 lambda display around 6 dB of gain (when bought of the shelf) So, we're still only at 8 watts.

  Are you sure? yes | no

kasual wrote 08/10/2025 at 04:09 point

Now, I could go on correcting you guys every step of the way, or.....

I could point you at some 30 year old projects called

"Packet Radio" and "APRS"

"Tell no one I have put you on the path." - The Golden Child 

  Are you sure? yes | no

Bertrand Selva wrote 08/10/2025 at 07:21 point

Have a look at that : https://hackaday.io/project/203099-fallout-style-communication-terminal-afsk-modem
I use Packet Radio in my previous communicator version :)

  Are you sure? yes | no

Bertrand Selva wrote 08/10/2025 at 07:23 point

LoRa sensibility is very high... about -137 dBm at 2400 baud

  Are you sure? yes | no

kasual wrote 08/10/2025 at 22:11 point

It is not the RF or signal processing of the APRS I am directing you to. The APRS club in Arizona and countless other Amateur Radio clubs deployed their packet transceivers in exceedingly devious manners.

There is an olde contest among Amateur Radio clubs. It is called a "Fox Hunt." It is used to hone the skills of those who track down malicious interference. A signal source of low power is intentionally camouflaged, hidden and operated so as minimize detectability. These "foxes" were designed to operate in austere and deleterious environment for weeks to months at a time. So, when APRS came along, the same lessons of hiding in plain sight were applied to minimize the "Attractive Nuisance" factor.

  Are you sure? yes | no

kasual wrote 08/10/2025 at 04:06 point

PVC..atrocious

Fiberglass...divine

Following product sold by a company that specializes in ANTENNA BUILDING for amateur radio operators.

https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/dxe-pfg0200-4

  Are you sure? yes | no

Bertrand Selva wrote 08/10/2025 at 06:35 point

it's not so expensive ! 

  Are you sure? yes | no

kasual wrote 08/11/2025 at 01:57 point

Nope, because people of limited means with insane creativity created it 40+ years ago 

  Are you sure? yes | no

kasual wrote 08/10/2025 at 04:02 point

55+ years of experience speaking hear.

PVC is a VERY POOR CHOICE for antenna armatures and insulators. It's high dielectric coefficient means it sucks up rf energy. More importantly it shifts the hell out of impedance matching. PVC sucks up UV light like nothing else, degrading it rapidly in open sunlight, making ng both brittle and porous. This porosity invites, traps, and hold moisture. (See previous about dielectric constant.) 

Fiberglass & resin! (Nuff said.)

If this is a sincere infrastructure backup project then these "DIY 'Makerverse' insta-video algorithm point driven choices need to be excluded from the get go. RF engineering, er... tinkering, is not easy if you expect realistically usable results without wasting months of time and thousands of dollars.

Sincerely

A retired electronics manufacturing engineer who was taught first by his honest to gawd "Certified Steely Eyed Missile Man" NASA engineer father.

  Are you sure? yes | no

Bertrand Selva wrote 08/10/2025 at 06:41 point

Thanks for the feedback — you’re right, PVC isn’t ideal. I mainly use it for its low cost (~€1.5 per meter) and availability.

On my setup (thin tube, 1 mm wall thickness, Ø ~20 mm), the main effect is detuning, which I compensate for by re-tuning the antenna (I love my tinySA). As for RF losses, an order-of-magnitude calculation with εr ≈ 3.2 and tan δ ≈ 0.01–0.02 shows that at 446 MHz, only about 5% of the electric field energy is actually in the wall; the corresponding extra loss remains small — typically around 0.05–0.1 dB (dry, retuned). This must be weighed against the overall gain of about 7 dBi and the very low build cost (around €13 plus 80 g of PLA printing).

Where I fully agree with you is on UV resistance and moisture: over time, PVC becomes brittle and can turn porous, which increases losses (slightly). Short-term mitigation: UV-resistant varnish/paint plus vent holes at the base to avoid condensation.

From a “philosophy” point of view, I try to do a lot with very little — simple and inexpensive materials — more of a “guerrilla” approach than a “regular army” one. That said, I’m always open to rigorous feedback. Measurements would be useful: ROE/S11 with bare antenna vs. in-tube (retuned), then a far-field A/B test (RSSI/SNR over a packet series).

For now, the antenna radiates well (gain noticeable in field tests, but yet to be quantified). I take your points on board and plan to run a measurement campaign to determine the actual gain (I have bought a nanoVNA, very nice for power measurements).

Thanks again for the exchange — that’s how we make progress.

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Bertrand Selva wrote 08/10/2025 at 06:55 point

I dug up my notes. Here’s a more detailed (still approximate) estimate of RF losses.

Assumptions:
D = 20 mm, wall = 1 mm → r2 = 10 mm, r1 = 9 mm; centered radiator a ≈ 1 mm; f = 446 MHz so λ ≈ 0.672 m and R ≈ λ/(2*pi) ≈ 107 mm; epsilon_r ≈ 3.2; tan(delta) ≈ 0.01–0.02.

Fraction of energy in the PVC wall

Formula (thin-wire in a coax-like shell):
Wd/Wtot = (epsilon_r * ln(r2/r1)) / (epsilon_r*ln(r2/r1) + ln(r1/a) + ln(R/r2))

Numbers (mm):
ln(r2/r1) = ln(10/9) = 0.10536
epsilon_rln(r2/r1) = 3.20.10536 = 0.337
ln(r1/a) = ln(9/1) = 2.197
ln(R/r2) = ln(107/10) = 2.370

So:
Wd/Wtot = 0.337 / (0.337 + 2.197 + 2.370) = 0.337 / 4.905 = 0.069 ≈ 6.9%

Dielectric loss (referred to radiated power)

Formula:
Pdiel/Prad ≈ Qrad * tan(delta) * (Wd/Wtot)

Typical dry case: Qrad = 10 (thin wire), tan(delta) = 0.01
→ Pdiel/Prad = 10*0.010*0.069 = 0.69% → ≈ 0.03 dB

Pessimistic dry case: Qrad = 20, tan(delta) = 0.02
→ Pdiel/Prad = 20*0.020*0.069 = 2.76% → ≈ 0.12 dB

Conclusion (D = 20 mm, wall 1 mm, dry, retuned): additional RF loss ≈ 0.03–0.12 dB, typically ~0.05–0.08 dB.
The dominant effect remains detuning but as I explained I correct during tuning (and it's true the effect of PVC tube is important).

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Bertrand Selva wrote 08/10/2025 at 07:05 point

cut in 3 zones : inside the wire, between tube and wire, outside the tube...

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kasual wrote 08/11/2025 at 02:04 point

P.S. I've emailed your web page email account.

Let's also répondre there as well

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kasual wrote 08/09/2025 at 00:39 point

Bertrand,

In my "sign up message" you will see my detailed concern about your selection of power source.

Here I will begin my explanation of a solution.

Since you are primarily motivated by the high probability of pilferage your design constraints become apparent. But may I offer this. You must fall back upon a concept given name by your wooden shoe wearing ancestors, camouflage by sabotage.

You WILL need a source of energy input. A source that is just as dense as the usage. There are HIGHLY camoflagable generators that produce 10s to hundreds of milliwatts for very large portions of the day. They are wind AND vibration powered.

Bladeless "wind turbines" convert magnetic to electrical energy through transverse translation, vice rotation, of the magnets in a generator. 

Imagine a piece of VHS video tape, under tension, with the flat magnets of hard drive pickup heads, on both sides. Outside of these are the actuator coils as the field pick up coils. This low density power is easily activated by winds, BREEZES, that are imperceptible. 

There are now commercially available models.

https://youtu.be/pS2mhjdKdAA?si=LJQIYNfdYdu_8Jy3

Secondly, this power source is so very easy to camouflage in the same manner that Cellular telephone poles in areas that have aesthetic sensitivities and constraints. Your LoRaPole will completely disappear into its background.

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kasual wrote 08/09/2025 at 00:50 point

Second video on power, there are more. I will add them here.

https://youtu.be/Bc6buD-jq1k?si=PxMbRYeOg9hL5r4l

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kasual wrote 08/09/2025 at 00:58 point

This video is an OPEN SOURCE, how to video to make one for yourself

https://youtu.be/7HzZ6lRacFI?si=J5Tlq_fwU9UjIkT8

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Bertrand Selva wrote 08/10/2025 at 06:43 point

Thank you for sharing this idea — it’s very interesting, and I believe it could indeed match the kind of power levels my system requires. I’ll definitely keep it in the back of my mind.

For now, my main focus is on redesigning the PCB for ultra-low power operation. Once that milestone is reached, it will open up a wider range of possibilities for the energy source — whether remaining on batteries or moving to an alternative supply like the one you suggest.

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kasual wrote 08/10/2025 at 22:14 point

Agreed.

For now, I would be interested in seeing your power budget and your system timing "map" for power conservation. Email those to me to keep them offline, for now.

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Christoph Tack wrote 08/07/2025 at 15:39 point

Well executed project!  I think you can reduce TX-power (and extend battery life) if you would use an antenna with some gain, such as a J-pole.

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Bertrand Selva wrote 08/08/2025 at 07:48 point

Thanks Christoph !
Yes, you're right about the antenna.
It reduces the energy cost of transmissions and improves reception capabilities.

I built a PVC tube antenna that fits this system — the antenna base fits perfectly into a 50 mm tube.
It’s a 3x5/8 lambda for PMR446, but it can easily be adapted for 433 MHz.
Its gain is around 7 dBi : https://hackaday.io/project/203137-358-pmr-antenna-clean-matched-3d-printable

The issue is regulatory: in France, the limit is 10 dBm ERP.
If I use a high-gain antenna, even with the lowest transmission power of the Ebyte E22400T22D (10 dBm), I exceed the authorized limit by almost an order of magnitude.

Otherwise, in a post-apocalyptic scenario: 33 dBm at the transmitter + 3x5/8 lambda — the range would become regional.

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kasual wrote 08/10/2025 at 22:27 point

These restrictions by calculation have one glaring assumption.

That being the ERP is actually an eIrp, or effective radiated power over isotropic source. What this means is that you 10dBm is assumed asserted from a point source, radiated uniformly in all directions. 

Calorimetric measurement of the available RF energy at the physical transition node of the radiating antenna is what this number means.

Unless the regulations actually specify an "field energy density" of  say 100 microvolts per square meter at a distance of 1000 meters across all points of circumference around the radiating array," you are free to "beam form" that 10dBm however you need. Say, maybe, two 31 element Yago-Uda arrays on a 1 3)4 wavelength per leg phasing harness with each antenna pointed down each line of approach of a bicycle path giving you "solid coverage" out to 15 km with only 0dBm input power. 

This could give you a solid 149 dB rf path budget with absolutely minimal input electrical power.

It's all in the sky hooks my man.

Sky Hooks. 

Salud

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kasual wrote 08/11/2025 at 02:01 point

You still need to conduct "site surveys" of each node location and budget your RF energy along the lines of approach. Omnidirectional radiators have two big detractors in a network of this type:

1. Sending energy into systems that it could interfere with.

2. Wasting rf energy along directions or won't be needed 

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