Jordan BunkerSophi Kravitz Welcome to all the new people! If you have questions for this chat, please add them to the sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TpS-LuOB73fScb-GwLUj6m_Fi3FFPHeUVWub207B1lY/edit#gid=0
Sophi Kravitz Let's start!
Soul_Est @Martin 2 is a company and 3 a crowd? :)
Sophi Kravitz @Martin can you introduce yourself ?
Martin Hi all,
Martin (you prob want more than that)
Jonny Wester Yes, but the good thing is, its a head start tart of the day here. I am Swedish, when there, time is terrible, both ways to work with.
James Murphy Ok I'm here you can all get started now.
Martin Sitting at a desk in Auckland
Sophi Kravitz (more than that please ;)
James Murphy I have to say regarding that Times Square Video....WOW! So when can we see a small portable DJ Version???
Martin As my blurb says I have been specializing in entertainment lighting control for about 20 years. I consider myslef a lighting geek
Soul_Est What a tease. :P
Martin Its an industry where most people who are in it are very passionate about it
Jonny Wester Light workers...
Martin It's one of those unique industries where creative joins with tech
Martin I work as a lighting designer (not much money in that) and light a couple of shows a year
Martin But my day job is as a developer
Martin I will tell you one side story as we get started...
James Murphy Just wondering if you know a good buddy of mine : Mike Swinford Uuplate Design, Inc. Hermitage TN. Former Lighting Director of the Group Alabama?
Martin For 3 years in a row, at about this time of the year, I would go up to CT to program the lighting for a Christmas display at a Billionaires house.
Martin This guy really liked Christmas
Sophi Kravitz is it CT as in the USA Connecticut?
Martin I dont know what he spent every year but it was a lot. It was a private display that used 114 universes of DMX
Martin 58,000 control channels
James Murphy Video! We Gotta See Video on this Martin.
Martin hold the line caller
Martin https://vimeo.com/90020472
Martin I think the 2 screens where 20K projectors
Shulie Tornel woooahhh
Sophi Kravitz WOWOWOWOWOW
James Murphy Kick-Ass!
Martin Each of the trees up the driveway was 4 universes each
Soul_Est Geez, that is a lot
James Murphy Please be sure to include a link, I gotta show this.
Martin The music was sung by the owners daughter. And they hired a 30-40 pc orchestra to record it - non of this canned music for this show. :D
Professor Fartsparkle now thats what I call rich people
Martin So that was fun for a few years. Although programming outdoors in Nov in CT was not the fun part.
Anil Pattni Wow, that's cool!
Martin So somehow I end up with a lot of oddball projects on my plate
Martin So I guess I have a reasonable claim to my company being a specialist for "entertainment lighting"
Sophi Kravitz what software did you use to run the CT show?
Martin LightFactory
Martin (my product)
Jonny Wester Cool!
Sophi Kravitz can we get an overview on LightFactory? how it works and such?
Martin BYW. The video you are watching was filmed on RED Epics (2013)
Frank Buss I'm sure you know Mike from UK, he does a lot with PICs, RS485 etc.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_RcTuE9fWc
what's the advantage of DMX systems?
James Murphy GOD BLESS AMERICA!
Martin LightFactory is a product I dev about 14 years ago for show control
Martin And has become a industry standard now (I thnk).
Sophi Kravitz congrats, that's awesome
Jonny Wester Are you still working on it?
Martin Its strength is cue based shows
Martin No the guy moved to FL and I dont thnk he does them any more
Martin LightFactory can control up to 150 univeres at the moment. Although I have been asked if it will do 200 for a job in the middle east (where else) so it looks like I will be expanding that soon
Sophi Kravitz what's a "universe"? (sorry everyone, I jumped the line on that question)
Jordan Bunker n00b question: what's a "universe"?
Martin We (LF) was one of the early products to do pixel mapping as a form of lighting control
Jordan Bunker oh, glad I'm not the only one! @Sophi Kravitz
Martin 1 Universe = 512 DMX Channels (512 control bytes)
Sophi Kravitz can you only control one thing at a time per channel?
Martin So a little about DMX... Its old and very antiquated.
Jonny Wester I mean, are you still working on the LightFactory software? I remember looking at it at the time of the openUSDMX, maybe 2004 or so.
Martin Its essentially a protocol on RS485 that packs 512 bytes into a frame broadcast at 44fps
Martin LF is now the core software in the Philips Entertainemnt NEO Console
Martin So that's 80% of the development on the product these days
James Murphy I think the Bradley Center in Milwaukee uses that older format. Anyone know?
Jonny Wester Well done!
Professor Fartsparkle huh I didn't know DMX had a framelock, why the 44fps?
Martin A lot of people are surprised that the industry uses DMX still because it seems so antiquated.
Martin @Professor Fartsparkle its not locked to 44 but thats the highest you can go to and its considered the standard
Professor Fartsparkle right
Martin @Professor Fartsparkle a lot of stuff out of China cannot handle 44
Jonny Wester 250Kbaud, 512 bytes + startcode + break = 44
Martin When I started with this DMX was DMX and no one ever thought about DMX equipment not being compatible but these days its a bit of a mess.
Martin The industry has tried to develop alternatives but DMX just wont die
Jonny Wester Maybe they use the internsl clock to save money, and the error accumulates.
Martin (Opinion) mostly because every attempt has been over engineered
James Murphy I can see that happening.
Greg Arnold When I designed my Christmas light show controllers, I used DMX because it was so widely supported anything can speak it.
Martin What we do have (and use mostly) these days is DMX over Ethernet
Martin There is a number of protocols but the major ones are ArtNet and sACN (E1.31)
James Murphy Do you have a particular supplier or list of sources you can share?
Martin All of these protocol just encapsulate the DMX512 frame into an Ethernet packet
Martin @James Murphy supplier of what?
James Murphy Hardware.
Professor Fartsparkle I think artnet is just failing at its low spread use and in the end its not much different than DMX over Ethernet I guess
Martin For DMX output hardware I use - http://www.dmxking.com/
It helps that its made locally but I do like Jason's engineering - the product has been very good for us
James Murphy Sorry, I have a lot of Chauvet hardware and I'm wondering what you prefer.
Jonny Wester RDM is big now. In China they put RDM on everything that receives, but not actually responding to RDM. Just able to take the start code I suppose.
Martin My bias is that I'm on the Philips ticket so I will often recommend their gear.
Sophi Kravitz @Martin and everyone: I'm going to go down the sheet of questions
Martin That said, I am old school and just think that VariLite have mostly a superior product
Sophi Kravitz if you have something, please add it to the sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TpS-LuOB73fScb-GwLUj6m_Fi3FFPHeUVWub207B1lY/edit#gid=0
Martin Elation are actually doing some good stuff these days
James Murphy FYI Remote Device Management is a protocol that sits on top of the normal DMX512 data standard. DMX512 is a unidirectional protocol which means that the data flows in one direction – from the control desk to the lights.
With the addition of RDM, the DMX512 system becomes a bi-directional (half-duplex) system. The controller is able to send out a question to devices on the wire, which can then respond with an answer. The messages within the protocol cover all the everyday tasks a lighting system manager incurs – setting DMX addresses, modes and other configuration tasks, plus monitoring sensors, usage, status messages and fault finding.Think of an RDM transaction as a conversation – the lighting desk says ‘tell me your DMX address’ and the fixture responds with ‘my address is 032’. This is known as a GET command. Next the controller can send a SET command, such as ‘set your DMX address to 065’, and the fixture can respond to acknowledge this change. In this way, through GET and SET commands and responses, the RDM protocol allows a control desk to modify and monitor the DMX system in ways never possible before.
Sophi Kravitz First question is from Nate: Do you have favorite or recommended DMX libraries, hardware, or resources particularly on the entry/DIY level?
Martin I develop all of the DMX side myself so I dont use any libraries for that.
Martin The only one I am aware of is OLA
Martin https://wiki.openlighting.org/index.php/Open_Lighting_Project
The Open Lighting Project is a multi-faceted effort aimed at accelerating the adoption of new, standardized control protocols, while also providing high quality, reliable, open software for the lighting industry. This site acts as a resource for anyone looking for information about DMX software and the associated control systems, as well as a variety of Open Source and free lighting software.
James Murphy Thank You.
Sophi Kravitz Next question is from Richard: What's the best way to use an osc controller like touchosc with the dmx protocol or device?
Martin A lot of smart people behind that but I dont know of many commercially successful products that have come out of it.
Nicola Leonardi +1 for OLA, really easy to diy a USB-DMX converter with a FT232 and MAX458 chip
Martin OSC is obviously a totally different protocol to DMX so essentially you need something that going to translate
Jonny Wester But no RDM with the FT232???
Arsenijs @Nicola Leonardi You mean, MAX485?
Martin LightFactory for example has the ability to receive OSC messages and have those trigger thing in the software (run a cue, move a submaster etc)
Nicola Leonardi lol yeah 485
Martin But I dont think you will find any 1:1 translation between them
Professor Fartsparkle if you don't shy away from a little programming have a look at openFrameworks, Processing or VVVV
Sophi Kravitz Next question is from @Professor Fartsparkle , but I think we've covered a lot of this already: Why DMX over more "modern" solutions like artnet or MQTT
Martin BTW. If you use ASIO in your code then the OLA architecture will make sense to you.
Martin At the end of the day someone has to plug together equipment out in the real world
Professor Fartsparkle yea thats fine we can skip that question
Martin ok, I wont say any more
Professor Fartsparkle I guess I actually wanted to know what you like most about DMX :p
Martin I was just going to say that DMX is a very robust protocol and if you think about how its used thats very important
Sophi Kravitz question from @endevor100 : when it comes to designing a DMX receiver how often do you find that the DMX is actually electrically isolated from the rest of the circuit?
Jonny Wester Anyone like my product, the XLRJ45?
Martin @Professor Fartsparkle I don't part like it but its what we have and trying the lighting industry is a big ship to change direction on
Martin Let me tell you the store of RDM and I think you will get a better picture
Professor Fartsparkle totally
Professor Fartsparkle shameless plug but maybe interesting project for lighting nerds. Some low budget project we did last year, making a game with DMX controlled lights and bikes: https://player.vimeo.com/video/171936640
Martin So RDM (Remote device management) is a protocol added on top of DMX to allow bi-directional coms
Sophi Kravitz Shameless plugs! Put them in the sheet for later and if you want to lead a chat on your project/ product ping me
Martin The idea being that you can use it to configure equipment, get sensor data etc
Martin Now... The DMX standard is a 5pin XLR connector that only uses 3 pins
Professor Fartsparkle sorry, I didn't want to interrupt the chat order!
Martin So the logical idea would be that you use the extra 2 pins for bi-directional coms
Martin But they didnt do that...
Jonny Wester I think isolation is extremely important, you have no clue where the other end of the cable is. Can have ground from another transformer station. I have seen this problem at big installations with long distances to other power.
Martin The reason that the standards body says goes like this...
Martin To maximise the uptake of RDM they wanted it to work with existing equipment and cables that people already owned and had in rental stock.
endevor100 Isolation is a great idea and on a $100k console it's a necessity, but what about for a $20 led tape dimmer?
Martin Now because the standard is 5pin evenyone had 5pin DMX cables in stock. But all of these 5pin DMX cables where made with only 3 core cables
Martin So everyone had cables without the extra 2pins connected.
Professor Fartsparkle why the hell is it a 5 pin connector then :D
Martin (opinion) The real reason is that a couple of the big players on the standards committee already had their own proprietary protocols that used these extra 2 pins.
Jonny Wester Because 3-pin was a mic and speaker connector.
Professor Fartsparkle yea but why not just 3 pin XLR then?
Professor Fartsparkle why waste a connector like that
Martin Because originally they thought the standard would use the extra 2 pins
endevor100 @Professor Fartsparkle a lot of people in industry agree with you. Especially because the 3 pin connectors have larger and therefore more robust pins. It drives me crazy
Martin But when they came to implement someone lots of people came up with reasons why not to
Frank Buss I guess it wouldn't sound good, if you accidentally plugin a DMX signal in a 10kW XLR speaker
Professor Fartsparkle hm yea that does sound pretty shady
Sophi Kravitz moving on :) next question from @Anil Pattni : Which affordable DMX tech/projects might be great for an outdoor kids stage?
Martin @Anil Pattni Thats not easy to answer. The Wiggles for example have a lighting rig to rival some of the largest pop artists.
Boian Mitov Sorry guys, will miss the end... Will see the rest later :-(
Martin You need to find someone who can do the lighting design first within your budget
Sophi Kravitz bye @Boian Mitov , your question is next :)
Martin bye @Boian Mitov thanks
James Murphy Can I put a plug in for a lighting director?
Sophi Kravitz @James Murphy shameless plugs now have their own column in the sheet ;)
Sophi Kravitz https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TpS-LuOB73fScb-GwLUj6m_Fi3FFPHeUVWub207B1lY/edit#gid=0
DMX512 LIghting Control Systems Hack Chat
Sheet1 DMC Controls Hack Chat Details, Join Hack Chat Name, Hackaday. io profile, Questions( Please keep questions brief. 1-2 sentences is good:)), Answer! If you know the answer to the question, put it here with your hackaday. io profile so someone can thank you! Nate, theonetruestickman, Do...
Martin @Anil Pattni you need to figure out the lighting that you need for the size of stage etc and then determine the control you need. Sorry I cant be more specific than that
Sophi Kravitz Last question is from @Boian Mitov and I'm sure the rest of us want to know too: what are you working on now?
Martin @Anil Pattni contact a local hire company they will be able to give you the name of a lighting designer
Anil Pattni Cool, Thanks @Martin
Martin Right now we are in RC for the next version of the software for both NEO and LightFactory. We hope to have that out in time for LDI (http://www.ldishow.com/ldi17/Public/Enter.aspx)
James Murphy Uplate Design, Inc
3201 Earhart Road
Hermitage, TN 37076
Phone: (615) 882-0823 https://www.linkedin.com/in/mike-swinford-1281367/
Martin As I mentioned earlier there is a 200 universe fixed install coming up that will require some "tweaking" of the software.
Frank Buss it's not just a "#define UNIVERSE_COUNT 200"?
Sophi Kravitz we have just a few minutes left - Martin, what causes dead pixels? And in the case of the Coke sign, how many pixels is each LCD made up of?
Martin My son (6) did not understand what I did until I told him that my software was being rolled out in a ride at the Legoland discovery centers.
Sophi Kravitz !!! awesome !!!
Martin @Frank Buss yes it is that simple
Martin @Frank Buss but I think some performance testing might be required.
Martin @Sophi Kravitz WATER!
Frank Buss I was wondering about that, because Windows is not a hard realtime system
Frank Buss I guess you can't watch Netflix in the background :-)
Martin I have actually worked on a lot of LED screens over the years.
In the early years I actually wrote a lot of LightFactory sitting at horse racing as a screen tech
Martin Long days with very little to do unless the screen is going wrong
Sophi Kravitz what causes dead pixels?
Martin And in my experience the most common reason for dead pixels is water
Martin Whats worse is live pixels. I have worked on screens that when they went black they looked like a starfield
Martin The issue with LEDs is statistics
Martin Statistically LEDs are very reliable and last 1000s of hours.
Martin But no one installed just 1 LED
Jonny Wester Does your software count the run-time of a channel?
Martin A screen has hundreds of thousands of the things and when you do that the statistical probability comes into play. You only have to look at any architectural LED install to see that/
Sophi Kravitz I was just at the one in Times Square
Martin @Jonny Wester no - not practical and I dont think it would help you.
Sophi Kravitz there must be tons of water getting in to that!
Martin @Sophi Kravitz Cool!
Sophi Kravitz it is mesmerizing. great job!
Sophi Kravitz there are some dead pixels though
Martin The tile system is open but then the LED panel at the end is fully encosed
Martin dead pixels or dead panels?
Sophi Kravitz pixels within the panels and there are 2 panels stuck in the outie position
Jonny Wester Have seen it in the old bulb-time, the software suggested a bulb change before it broke.
Sophi Kravitz I took some video, you can see the pixels (which don't look too bad), and there seem to be only two stuck motors
Martin One of the issues I remember from my time in the screen world was thermal expansion and contraction of the case
Martin So when a screen panel is runnning it heats up the case its in. Then when nothing is being displayed it cools down and if the case is not well designed it will actually suck in any water sitting around it
James Murphy Thank you so much for presenting here Martin I really appreciated the story, the information, and the inspiration! Gotta Go! Murph.
Martin @James Murphy thank you for joining us
James Murphy By All, Thank YOU FOR THE INVITE!
Sophi Kravitz bye @James Murphy ! thanks for joining!
Arsenijs Oh well, that's something I wouldn't have thought of =D
Sophi Kravitz @Martin we're out of time, do you have to go or do you want to stick around?
Martin So I guess I would adjust my answer... Why do you get dead pixels?
1. Water (case design is all important)
2. Statistics - just because an LED has a rated life of 1000 hours does not mean all of them will
Martin I can stay for a few min
Sophi Kravitz sure. 1000 hours doesn't seem like that much even
Sophi Kravitz is this the first sign of this kind?
Frank Buss @Martin so it is controlled all by your program on Windows, and I guess internet connected? don't you fear that someday there is a big wannacry image on your installation?
Martin You just have to look at the new LED traffic lights to see the statistical life at work
Jonny Wester I often see driver issues here, big square black or freaking out.
Sophi Kravitz the technical challenges of repairing something so high up and inaccessible seems so hard!
Martin @Frank Buss No, our software was used all of the way through prototyping. But the finished product we licensed them some of our back end DLLs. Yes it runs on Windows and talks ArtNet
Jonny Wester I often wonder how repairs are done. I newer se anyone up at the scrapers. Maybe its done from behind.
Martin @Sophi Kravitz I dont know how its maintained by I agree it does not look easy. The tiles are easy to replace but access must be a nightmare
Martin Most permanent install screens are rear accessable
Martin Its generally a spec point to install one
Sophi Kravitz It looks like you can access it from behind
Sophi Kravitz (but seriously, what do I know, I was like 40' below it!)
Martin I still have not seen it in person
Jonny Wester So one floor of the building is power supply for these massive displays?
Martin I only got to see the lighting of Niagara in person last month
Martin Remote access to too good these days. No one want to pay for airfairs :)
Frank Buss how much did the Time Squares display cost?
Martin @Frank Buss I dont know sorry
Sophi Kravitz I can't imagine what will happen in the snow
Sophi Kravitz @martin I also wondered what limits the amount of distance the panels come out ?
Martin Fun fact... The LED for Niagara have a 3deg beam angle
Jonny Wester ...buit in heaters maybe, or more mot from the led 's.
Martin @Sophi Kravitz The motor control would be the first limiter but a product like that would also have safety stops on it
Sophi Kravitz is the motor controlled by your software too?
Martin Yes, the motors are a 16bit DMX to control their position.
Martin 0 = Fully in and 65535 fully ouy
Martin That was the main reason they use the software to start with.
Martin So the movement is a pixel map itself
Jonny Wester With RDM feedback?
Martin No
Martin So when we prototyped it we used greyscale videos to map the movement
Martin White = fully out, black = fully in
Martin LF then pixel mapped the grey scale video to DMX to drive the panels
Martin The finished product they created their own animation system and used our components to drive the panels.
Martin I am afraid that I need to continue with my day. I hope everyone found this helpful or at least mildly interesting.
Soul_Est Are you kidding @Martin ? We are very excited about this! Thank you for sharing with us!
Jonny Wester Did you do winter simulation with snowstorms and ice? What will happen when the first snow comes, and melts, and next day is freezing cold?
Jordan Bunker Seriously! Thanks @Martin !
Sophi Kravitz Thank you @Martin !
Frank Buss @Jonny Wester you will have a lot of ice cubicles :-)
Sophi Kravitz Come back again :)
Martin @Sophi Kravitz Does my email address appear anywhere if anyone wants to contact me?
Richard Hogben thanks
Jonny Wester Ice in my shameless drinks...
Professor Fartsparkle thanks @Martin, this was very intersting
Professor Fartsparkle right mail address would actually be intersting
Professor Fartsparkle I guess if you post it just not it appears in the log
Martin martin@dreamsolutions.biz
Jonny Wester Yes, Martin, honoured to chat to the man behind LightFactory, Thank you!
Martin Have a good weekend everyone - thanks for having me. Bye
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